this is parenting for the everyday a

podcast dedicated to meeting parents in

the trenches of Parenthood we explore

how our faith fits into our parenting

with the help of our guests we are

seeking practical tips on how the gospel

can speak into our day-to-day parenting

from the easy stuff to the hard stuff we

want to talk about it all welcome to

parenting for the every day I'm Holly D

kju and I'm Becca Alvarez a few weeks

ago we did an episode on realistic quiet

times and a conversation that we kept

having coming out of that was this idea

of letting go of this perfectly bow

wrapped faith and we've kind of come

back to it a couple times and talked

about um how do we talk about it on this

podcast in this space and kind of landed

on me walking through maybe our my

infertility Journey um because I feel

like that's really when my faith my bow

shaped Faith really unraveled and so I'm

excited to kind of get to share share

that Journey here in this space and kind

of walk through what God taught me and

how he molded me and just all the things

that came uh um through infertility and

through

loss and before we even get started I

just want to take a minute and thank you

for being willing to talk about this I

know that this is something that is near

and dear to your heart and a tender part

of your life that maybe not many people

even know about um I also think this is

a little bit of an interesting topic to

be talking about this time of year but I

felt really passionate about bringing it

into a Christmas time because I think

that Christmas can be something that is

so exciting and wonderful but the truth

is that not everyone's lives are in a

season of excitement and wonder and it

can feel really lonely when you're in

that season and you and no one's really

giving you space to be where you are and

I also really feel like it would take a

dimension away from Christmas if we left

that out in the sense that even Mary and

Joseph were in a really lonely time and

the end of that story ends well we know

it ends well but in the middle when

you're getting shut out of every place

and you are 9 months pregnant and about

to have a baby like you are so lonely

and you are such an outcast and it looks

so different than you thought it would

look and that's really the basis of

where we want to start this episode yeah

it's funny cuz um some people know the

story cuz I have shared it and then it's

been a while so I think a lot of people

don't necessarily know the road that

I've walked to but my journey to

Parenthood was anything but straight

it's a lot of Curves a lot of windy

roads um my husband and I were diagnosed

with unexplained infertility which is

the most unhelpful diagnosis you can

receive s it's just no answers and so

you're like what do I do with this um

later we would find out that there is a

genetic abnormal abnormality but that

plays into it but it has been uh

Decades of infertility and miscarriages

and I I have had eight miscarriages

which I always hesitate to say that

number because everyone always is like

oh um and I'm only saying it because I

just want to like set the stage of like

hey this was really hard and for me it

came in the form of infertility and

miscarriage but for other people loss

comes in different and you don't need to

have eight miscarriages to feel the

depth of a miscarriage or a loss or

infertility and so just St stating

setting the AG that losses really hard

in whatever for him that that kind of

looks like um and the biggest thing is

that I feel like I grew up um in church

in a Christian home and somehow along

the way I had this notion in my head of

what a good Christian woman should look

like um and at its core it's this belief

that she doesn't waver that she's strong

um she probably makes a good casseroll I

don't know I still can't do that um

definitely sour dough yes nowadays don't

even know like what is a starter I don't

I don't even know um but yeah and it's

only through like the Journey of

infertility and loss that I came to

realize like how absolutely ridiculous

in contrary to what the gospel says that

that notion is and so um yeah we can we

can dive into it let's dive so starting

kind of at the top and you talked about

having infertility impact your faith how

did it impact your faith yeah in

infertility and loss I keep using those

together

I might just say infertility but I mean

loss in there as well I feel like I

could talk about it all day long and I

could never be able to fully summarize

what it does to the depths of a woman's

Soul um it rocks every part of you um

and it really wasn't long into my

journey that I started to recognize that

my head and my heart didn't say the same

thing and so I knew in my head that I

should be saying God is good God is

faithful God has a plan I trust this

plan he has his best for me um but what

my heart was saying is sure God's good

but he's not good to me um and what I

felt was forgotten scared unseen Alone

um and there there started to be this

lie that would creep in that if God

really loved me I wouldn't be here you

know if he loves you how could he let

you go through all of this loss and

heartbreak um and and what makes it more

complicated is what I said earlier right

it's this idea that like Christians

should they should have a faith that

weathers the storm and can stand in the

midst of that and when I didn't on the

outside I'm saying all the right things

but on the inside I'm not feeling these

things so then you add this layer of

guilt that started to creep in of man

you're a phony you're a fake um you

don't have a real Faith as what kind of

Christian are you that as soon as it

gets tough you fall apart and you've got

questions um and you're doubting God's

faithfulness to you and so then on top

of the loss and pain you've got this

guilt and shame that the enemy just

weaves into into a into a mess and

isolation I would assume because

especially if you're presenting one way

and feeling it another way you can only

do that for so long before you just

start to not show up anymore yep

yep um how how do you reconcile the

belief in a loving God with the pain and

loss associated with miscarriage and

infertility yeah I I think this is a

really hard question

there's probably not an answer that you

leave with being like oh that's good I

feel good about that that makes total

sense um but I can tell you what I

walked through um and for me at some

point I realized that I Associated God's

love and goodness with two pink lines

and so without those lines I believe the

lie that God was withholding good from

from me um and it's so D that is such

dangerous thinking I think that's the

seed that the enemy plants in so many of

us and for me it's two pink lines but it

could be anything it could be a job it

could be sickness it could be a marriage

wealth it could be your kids being

successful but all of a sudden you know

you've got that doubt that God's

withholding on you um and so what

happens is you start to look at your you

start to look at God through the lens of

your

circumstances and what you have to get

to a places you have to filter your

circumstances through God and so it's

that

it's a making your like getting right

side up again I think that is the

journey um and so at some point I had to

accept the truth that not having kids um

back in those days and even now like

I've dealt with secondary infertility I

would love to have more kids but the

answer is no the the Lord has said no um

and so I have to recognize that that no

is actually from God in his complete

goodness um and that I say that really

with fluidity um but it's really really

hard to do um and it it what happened in

me is that it revealed um I don't want

to say the crack in my faith but it

revealed this deficit in the fact that

um the Brokenness and despair that

resulted out of my pain wasn't a result

of my circumstances it was the result of

a Detachment from God and who he was and

so because I didn't have a clear view on

who God was and what the gospel meant

for me

that created that level of Brokenness

from him not my infertility does that

make sense that does make sense I just I

want to clarify too so you are saying

that it

wasn't your Brokenness was felt to the

depth that it was felt I mean the pain

is still real the pain is still real you

know just if you're really Tethered to

God doesn't mean you don't feel pain

yeah but it was not the infertility

itself I mean I would I would say like

the depth of the Brokenness that I felt

was a result of being detached from who

God really is um because the pain if I'm

if I'm attached to who God is and I have

a clear vent like if I if what I believe

about the gospel is true right that at

my worst um and most unlovable self God

sends Jesus to pay the price um then

that mean and he's working to restore

all things then he is good yeah that

that proves that he's good um so how

could I reduce God's goodness to my

Earthly circumstance so when I lose

sight of God's goodness it's not because

of my circumstances it's because I've

lost sight of God yeah that does make

sense how did you get there oh man I

didn't you know is that is that

something that like one day you're

feeling this way and the next day you

remember God's goodness oh no no it's a

proc how do you processed to there it's

funny I remember um being in the shower

I do a lot of good thinking in the

shower good processing praying and I

remember kind of being like really

really angry and at that point I was

kind of letting God have it like I was

kind of like this is ridiculous you know

um you've put this desire in my heart

and then you say no to it this is stupid

why would you do that um and I really

heard God speak to the depth of my heart

so clearly and he said you know Holly

you don't trust me to give you what you

want because at this point I I had

actually really stopped praying about it

cuz we can get into that later but so he

was like you don't trust me to give you

what you want but you don't trust me to

take care of you if I don't

and so it was like oh okay yeah it's

like you had to wrestle I really had to

wrestle with that for a long time and

come to the the gra the kind of the

understanding that did I just want G God

to give me what I was asking for is that

what I really wanted or is it possible

to find satisfaction that when God does

not fix the difficulty in my life but he

instead gives me Grace to endure them

without becoming bitter without becoming

resentful that that is his goodness

um Nancy Guthrie has a quote where she

says can I move from Desperately Seeking

relief to diligently seeking to glorify

God as I treasure him more than I do my

own comfort and again it's really hard

and it's not a yes and it's it's I would

say it is a

lifelong surrender to get to that point

um and it's not something that I could

ever do on my own and so to answer your

question no it was through his strength

his grace um in my weakness that he

becomes the only place where all of a

sudden it's the only it's the only way

that I can place my hope it's the only

place that makes sense you know when you

start to really let him fill in the gaps

you know of all your wrong thinking you

mentioned that at some point during this

journey 10 years yeah that it was just

something that you stop praying about so

what did that role look like maybe even

take us through the not the whole

timeline but the timeline from the

beginning of kind of what prayer and

scripture looked like in a time of

needing to cope during your

disappointment and loss and what it

looks like towards the end yeah yeah I I

stopped praying because at some point

you get to the point where at least for

me um it is better to not ask so you

don't have to be told no over and over

again right and so it was like a defense

mechanism that I was you know

unhealthily coping with um if you are

struggling with infertility Sarah

Hagerty has a book called every bitter

thing is sweet and I highly recommend

the book

and she talks about how um she meets a

woman who is saying like um finds out

that Sarah is struggling with

infertility and she says oh my gosh I've

been there I like it took us two months

to get pregnant and that was really hard

so I totally understand what you're what

you're going through and Sarah was

saying like it I wish it had taken me

two months because when you're at two

months you are still kind of in this

like okay it's taking a little bit

longer but God you have a plan and so

that's kind of how the prayer starts it

starts with this idea like Lord could

you give us this could you give and then

each month that goes by or each loss

your prayers just get a little bit

shorter and shorter and shorter and and

that's wrong and it's flawed thinking

but that's kind of the path that I went

to um and so this is also where I would

say it's really important to build

habits outside of a crisis or a loss so

if you're not I mean if you are it's

never too late but if you're not going

through something really hard it's it's

this lesson that I started to learn that

talks about um the idea of walking it

back and so when I don't feel like

praying or I don't feel like opening the

Bible or I'm angry you know you walk it

back and I gotta start with the gospel

right so I got to start the gospel and I

got to speak that truth to myself even

when I don't feel it so I have to remind

myself God is good how do you know that

God is good and keep walking it back has

he been faithful to you in other areas

of your life okay what are those areas

those life what did that faithfulness

look like did you see it in the moment

and start to like release the control so

that then you know you can start to be

like okay God I can trust you with this

really hard big thing because I've

walked it back and I remember the past

and so that's kind of how um my prayer

life evolved um from being like Oh yeah

I'm going to pray about it all the time

I'm never going to pray about it to

saying okay I need to talk to you about

it but let's let me walk it back and

start fresh that's really good that's

really good advice now with loss and

infertility you of course felt that

deeply but you weren't the only one in

the scenario that was feeling that so

how did your relationship with your

spouse and partner evolve

through the struggles of infertility and

miscarriage yeah I feel like this is

this is another hard one this is hard

one yeah the enemy wants nothing more

than to drive a wedge between you and

your spouse and he'll use anything that

he can um to take your eyes off of the

way marriage is supposed to look I

actually when I was kind of preparing

that we were going to talk about this I

read a statistic that said um couples

who experience a season of infertility

or a pregnancy loss are three times more

likely to call it quits it's like wow

the odds are like not in your favor um

and so you have to be com batling that

even though I would say the journey for

me was very different than the journey

for my husband um who also struggled

with it but struggled way differently

you know he wasn't the one that had the

loss or was bleeding or was doing this

and so it it it's just from totally

different Vantage points and so I would

say and again this isn't specifically

for infertility loss but I would say you

need to talk about it slash don't talk

about it got it clear yeah yeah tell

tell us more um it's like you need to

talk about it you need to even when you

don't want to say how you're feeling

even when you can't really articulate it

um but also it can't be all you talk

about otherwise it becomes all consuming

to your relationship and your your

identity as a couple becomes wrapped up

in this and that feels like it naturally

happens because you're like this is the

hardest thing that we're going through

and so trying to find that balance of

like we're going to go to dinner and

we're going to talk about it on Friday

and then on Saturday we're just going to

be a couple we're not going to talk

about

I mean it doesn't to be that rigid but

creating space for both of those um I

would say that you got to search for Joy

um where you can find it so it might be

an extra date night a weekend away cake

for breakfast I don't know that brings

me joy you know that might that probably

doesn't bring you Joy No it brings me

joy um uh but yeah seek ways um be

intentional about seeking ways as a

couple that are fun that can fill you up

that can kind of remember who you were

before this trial was like who you were

as a couple and then um back to even

that praying is to pray together which

can feel super awkward and uncomfortable

and I don't know sometimes I'm like this

feels so weird I don't what to say um

but you're praying for each other you're

praying um with each other um yeah like

I said I had a season where I stopped

praying and I was absolutely at my worst

and my marriage was probably at its

worst too during that season so you want

to avoid that I think it's so good to

even me though cuz I think

that when we go through

Seasons the right thing to do is to stay

Tethered to God sometimes that feels

impossible that you can't do that but I

love that you even mentioned that you

had a season where you weren't praying

and that that didn't work out either no

no you know that sometimes you think

like I feel so angry and so lost and so

without hope that this is I'm going to

try something else because right now

this isn't helping um but then to

hear yeah that's it's worse it's worse

it's worse um what advice would you give

to someone in the faith community who

wants to support a couple with

infertility or miscarriage I feel like

um having people see you is the gift um

and infertility and miscarriage and loss

and questions it just feels super

isolating um and you know what I think

makes it different is so if you have

cancer and you go through chemo you lose

your hair and so people know that you

are walking through cancer because there

are physical signs and they can see that

that is not the case um when it comes to

like infertility like people have no

idea what you're going through and so

you feel really unseen cuz I actually

think nowadays people talk about it more

than they did when I was really walking

through some of the thick of it and so

having people who just see you makes a

world of a difference um and so finding

ways that you can remind someone they're

seeing it might be a meal like a sweet

treat again it's like the sweet treats

for me it's the cake for me um it could

be a text that just says like hey

thinking about you um it's an awareness

to know that like uh Mother's Day and

baby showers are really hard days and so

I still feel like there's people on

mother's like Mother's Day actually

oddly is super complicated for me for me

now even having walked through it and

the way that the Lord has has crafted my

family mo like Mother's Day is not a

joyful day for me it like takes me back

to all the years that it was so painful

and I feel like I just feel like

people's tension because it's

complicated um so even just yeah like

hey saying to someone like this day I

know this day might be complicated for

you thinking about you love you you're

not saying I know it's complicated I

know how you're feeling but you're just

saying like hey I see you here's flowers

like on this day to help you think about

it um so just being sensitive to those

spaces

um the other thing I thought was like

creating a space

for um someone to just be with you so

they might want to talk about what's

going on there are times that I I might

wanted to talk but there are times that

like um you know one of my my friends

would like do you want to catch a movie

I'm like I do want to catch a movie and

I don't want to talk about anything um I

just want to laugh at this movie and eat

popcorn okay and chocolate cake and

chocolate they don't sell at the movie

theater but they should they should um

but yeah and so just having a space

where you're like if you want to talk

let's talk if you want to just go for a

walk and not talk about anything

important we don't we can do that too

now you were going through all of this

in this 10 years during a time that a

lot of your friends were building

families and everybody was having B

everybody was having babies how one how

was that for you two how do you support

your friends when you're in such a

painful place um and how do you even

handle kind of the feelings of I that

came along with that that's a good

question I once was really hurt I had a

friend who found out she was pregnant

and she didn't want to tell me and so I

was like the last one to know and she

was like so afraid to tell me and it

like crushed me cuz I was like oh my

gosh do you think that I don't like that

I can't Rejoice with you um now that's

not to say that it still didn't sting

because it did like it still Hur every

time someone popped up pregnant you're

like well good for you you know um but I

think that you can feel both things and

so you can both be joyful for a friend

or a family member who is experiencing

something really good and grieve what

you don't have um and it doesn't mean

that you're going to that one the right

emotion is always going to come out on

top but I think giving it space and

having friends who um recognize that

space and give you space so for me if I

was going to have a friend uh do a

pregnancy announcement in a really fun

way and a group of people I would love

to know ahead of time then I can choose

if I want to come or if I don't want to

come and I don't have to run the

surprise but just like being caught off

guard with something could be really

triggering and so just being like hey

I'm pregnant I'm going to tell everybody

tonight through this game that we're

going to play just so you know and then

I get to choose whether I get I want to

be a part of it or not instead of you

choosing for me um so that's one thing

um the biggest thing that I would say is

to not isolate I think isolation is so

so so dangerous I think it's the enemy's

biggest tool um when there is no truth

going in I don't know how you ever get

right side up again because just false

things can take root and seeds can grow

um and so I know it's hard because you

don't want to go out and you don't want

to hang out with people and you feel

crummy um but at least find one person

that you can be honest with and say like

I feel crummy this is crummy I'm not

having a good day um I would also say go

to church like it's hard um but

corporate worship and prayer and the

reading of God's word will always like

will not return void and so building

that habit to every week make sure that

you are in church and you've got one

person that you can check in and be

honest with the rest of the people you

can be fake with them doesn't matter you

need you need one person that who's

going to speak truth to you and love you

through that yeah because I think I mean

you already mentioned this but I think

one of the things about infertility too

is it's such

a it's I don't I don't mean that it's

such a secret but it's something that

people start trying to have babies in

privacy and at what point do you start

to let people in on the journey you know

um and trying to find that find that

time because it would be so easy to just

isolate even more how have you

experienced God's presence or guidance

in unexpect in unexpected ways

throughout your journey with infertility

and

loss yeah let's feel like let's see if I

can take it all and you know sum it up

it's like infertility um has been years

of of heartbreak um for me and it it

comes in different waves so I might have

a season where I'm feeling like really

confident and then there might be a day

when I'm like oh man I'm right back kind

of where I started um but I also feel

like my heart has changed more in the

last 15 years than I ever thought it

could um there is something so cool um

that God would be willing to meet me in

the middle of my mess and so it's like I

didn't have to work through those

questions and doubts and you know

accusations that I was making against

him for him to be willing to come into

it with me um and

so you know he will hold me accountable

to some of that flawed thinking um when

those thoughts start to to creep back in

and you know his reminders that like I

am seen like I am loved um God has

goodness for me even if it's different

than I could comprehend on this side of

Heaven um but the biggest thing I feel

like that I would want to say or want to

make sure that people hear is like there

is no shame in saying that your heart

and head are broken um and that they

don't match um I feel like that's the

only space where you can really know him

as healer and it's not necessarily

healer of like like my womb it's like

healer of my eyes like to be able to see

him like for who he really is um I think

there's nothing more authentic or

beautiful um than a woman who learns to

let God rebuild her life um day after

day no matter how many broken pieces

there are to pick up no matter how much

work you did the day before if you come

back and you're like it's all broken

again the next day I think that is like

where real authentic beautiful Faith Lie

um and it's like in that journey I feel

like God has shown me the most beautiful

pieces of himself and to say that he is

truly trustworthy even with those

crevices like of my heart that I like

have kept hidden away from

him that was such a beautiful answer and

I think something that can be so

applicable in so many different

places of Brokenness if you were to

leave our listeners with

anything what would you say to them yeah

I feel like whatever kind of heartbreak

you're going through if it's um you know

infertility a miscarriage secondary

infertility which in and of itself is so

complicated because um you know the

world is saying like you should be

satisfied with what you have but your

heart is still longing for more like

wherever that is it's like just the fact

that like God can handle it he is not

thwarted by how broken you feel um if

you will just like lay the pieces before

him and trust him to rebuild it like he

is trustworthy and good and faithful to

do that Holly thank you so much for

sharing you sharing your heart sharing

this really really hard side of it too

um I appreciate it I appreciate learning

about you and your journey and how you

went through all of it to get to the

other side I also want to say for

listeners especially during this time um

if you are struggling and feeling like

you are broken and at a loss You are not

alone and you will never be alone and

you have people that are there that have

been in similar similar places and that

are in your corner to cheer you on thank

you for listening to this episode this

has been parenting for the everyday tune

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